The last two posts on Jeff's blog are about the theological topic of election. The point of view expressed in these two posts is one similar to Calvinism or Reformed Theology. Here are the cliff notes, so to speak:
-God chose who would go to heaven and hell before time began.
-People cannot resist choosing God when He draws them.
-If you are not one of the elect (chosen) you cannot choose God, ever.
-Jesus only died for the elect.
I have a few problems with this line of thinking. I believe it is an attack on God's character and is fatalistic, to say the least. If these statements were truth, then no one is responsible for their own destiny.
Here's some of the evidence to the contrary:
First Timothy Chapter 2 (emphasis mine):
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ[a]and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
Deuteronomy 30 19-20 (emphasis mine)
19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
Proverbs 1:29
29 Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
[trust me, this is not out of context; read it for yourself.]
Throughout the Bible the relationship between God and His people has been illustrated as a marriage, a binding relationship where both parties involved make a conscious choice. God is seen as the jealous husband of Israel in the Old Testament and as the Bridegroom in the New Testament.
2 Peter
Read this whole book, especially chapter 3. The book speaks of living a life that brings glory to God because God's judgment is coming on this world and all people.
3:9 shows God's patience and His desire:
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
God is longsuffering (patient) with us because He desires everyone to repent and give their lives to Him.
But here's my main point. Romans chapter 9 is used by some to support Calvinism, but I would like to hear the explanation of chapter 10: (emphasis mine again)
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Confession is a choice. A view of Romans 9 that supports Calvinist theology conflicts with a Biblical view of Romans 10.
God is awesome.
18 comments:
Watch for my next post pimp daddy
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Thank-you Josh.
A very well put together argument. I'm glad that you and Jeff are not letting these issues effect your friendship.
Jeff, you as well are writing interesting and exciting post. Keep it up...just like UFC I love to see a battle!!!
now i am not arguing one side or the other, but i quickly wanted to point out a few things, so that we are all seeking the TRUTH, and not reinforcement for our own views.
You may want to read the context of 2 peter 3:9. he is speaking to believers, and earlier in vs.9 speaks of His patience toward "you" (those believers that he is addressing), not willing that any (believers) should perish, but that all come to repentance. the context is absolutely crucial. why would God only show patience toward believers if He were willing that none should perish? would He, then, not come again until "all" were saved?
I deleted my first one to be more clear:
What you just said doesn't make any sense, because believers have already come to repentence- it is the prerequisite to getting saved. Here's what I posted:
"God is longsuffering (patient) with us because He desires everyone to repent and give their lives to Him."
I guess I should have been more clear and said that God is patient with us (believers) because we are His tools for sharing the Gospel with a world that will come under judgment.
Also I hope you are not insinuating that I am merely looking for support to my own point of view- that is offensive to say the least. I want to speak carefully here, but I could easily say that same comment about Calvinism. It's easy to make a comment like that when you disagree. I really do hope I misread your response, because personal attacks have no place in a mature theological discussion.
yes, you misread it. i am taking no sides, nor making personal attacks. personal attacks have no place among believers, period.
let me try to explain myself better. in context, Peter is telling believers about the end times. he is assuring them that they will come, and that the Lord is not slow about His promises. He then points out that He is patient toward "you", the believers. Yes, they are already believers. But God was patient with them until they came to repentance, "not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance". The verse does not say that He is patient will ALL, not willing that any should perish; but it says He is patient with "you" (believers). So if the ones that God is patient with are those who come to repentance(believers), than there are some that God is not patient with. Is He, then, willing that those whom He is not patient with come to repentance?
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." Rom.9:16
I am glad I misunderstood, and I apologize if I offended you.
Now about your response..
What about the words "any" and "all"? To say that these terms apply to believers is to make a pretty large philosophical leap, one I am not willing to make. I seem to be running into more and more situations where I am told that when the Bible says "all" it doesn't mean "all".
If God doesn't have patience with all, then why did Paul talk about God being patient with the objects of His wrath in verses 22-24? I already know that you and I disagree about these two verses, but they conflict with what you are saying if you interpret vs. 22-24 from a reformed perspective.
Actually, to say that these terms apply to believers is reading in context. The passage is very clear of whom he is addressing, and the word "you" further specifies that group.
I understand your hang-up with "all" meaning "all", because I struggle with that myself. But in my reading, it seems that if I take it in light of other Scripture, it makes much more sense to let the context define the word.
what i meant by patience in my response was that, in the context of 2 Peter 3:9, God is patient in order that He may grant us repentance.
but Rom. 9:22-24 only confirms that God does not grant patience for repentance to all, but also demonstrates His wrath and power in not granting repentance to those vessels of wrath.
I can't say I personally understand Romans 9:22-24. I will study it further. I still disagree about 2 Peter though, because believers have already come to repentance. The only way your interpretation would be accurate is if you were reading with a Calvinist perspective. I suggest we move on considering it seems like we aren't getting anywhere. We simply disagree on what the Bible says there.
If i may say one thing. There is a verse in Matthew 3 where John the baptist says this
8"Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;"
Christians do not simply repent once and then that is it. One of the fruits of salvation is if you are continuing to repent today, and that is what Peter is referring to.
There is other Scripture to back this up in 1 John but later
Okay, I agree that continued repentance is a part of the Christian life. My question is, why would God hold back judgment for "His elect" to repent? Would unrepentance send them to hell?
That doesn't make any sense.
However, God being patient with us so that unbelievers get an opportunity to repent makes a whole lot of sense.
And pleeease don't throw the "God's ways are higher than our ways" trump card. Sometimes that's just thrown in there because a verse in the Bible doesn't fit your worldview. Let's be honest.
Unrepentance does not send a "christian" hell but failure to continue repenting would prove that you are lost and not a christian. God is patient with His children in the fact that He disciplines them.
so the phrase "come to repentance" means to keep repenting? Then how long do God's "elect" need to repent before the judgment happens? Is God waiting for His people to be perfectly holy? I think not.
I have met people that think that our number one concern while we are on earth as believers is to witness to people. I disagree completely. Scripture is pretty clear that our number one goal is our relationship with God and to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. God is patient so that we can grow in holiness and our love for Him but not so that we can be perfect.
Okay, well if that is true then how holy do we have to be? Is God waiting for His "elect" to be holy enough to get into heaven? I hope you don't believe that. Help me understand your point of view. It doesn't make sense.
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